tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post4655627880958073364..comments2024-03-28T04:04:55.806-07:00Comments on Faculty of Language: The Generative BluesNorberthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15701059232144474269noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-17296935198686433832015-06-15T07:37:42.492-07:002015-06-15T07:37:42.492-07:00Phoevos Panagiotidis sends me a note correcting so...Phoevos Panagiotidis sends me a note correcting something I said in the post. Here is his comment:<br /><br />"Ancient Greek did not have a seven-vowel system, it used seven letters (still in use today) to represent a vowel system with more members (estimate vary)."<br /><br />Once again I pay the price of coming into linguistics from philosophy and never having taken a phono course. So, thx for the correction. Norberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15701059232144474269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-32630023313286817312015-06-09T11:30:13.430-07:002015-06-09T11:30:13.430-07:00ok, Gillian, about grumpy/happy. But there seems t...ok, Gillian, about grumpy/happy. But there seems to be a lot of negativity about lack of `outreach' (of both types) in what I've seen post-Athens. But I see lots of such work, and the solution to there not being enough of it, is to do it, not to self-flagellate. I don't think self-flagellation is very effective as a motivational technique, but overtly valuing such work probably is. Hence my previous post(s).davidadgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00821774928618824698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-64507313043511851402015-06-09T08:30:38.788-07:002015-06-09T08:30:38.788-07:00Amen, shout it out brother!Amen, shout it out brother!Norberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15701059232144474269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-27518122028229692342015-06-09T07:43:26.780-07:002015-06-09T07:43:26.780-07:00I think MLGs are important for outreach to the pub...I think MLGs are important for outreach to the public. We should be able to explain what the basic phenomena are that GG has discovered. If PBS can get the string theorists to do a NOVA series that explains their theories and explanations of the universe, we should be able to to the same.<br /><br />You'd want something a bit more specific than what Pinker did--focusing on specific language phenomena--such as structure dependent rules, verb movement, etc. I could imagine an episode where verb movement is presented--you could talk about V2, the differences between English and French, the change from OE to ME to PDE,, etc. Or a whole episode about island phenomena.<br /><br />It's important to show that (1) there are these really interesting properties of languages and (2) that these diverse properties can be unified as manifestations of a single property/rule.<br /><br />We wouldn't have to worry about whether the entire community of linguists agree, or even that all GGers agree with the approach to explain it. It's not as if string theory doesn't have problems, or that everyone is on board with the approach. But it gives the general public a taste of the kind of work GGers do, and the exciting part of discovery in linguistics. I think we may have lost sight of that.<br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07765373355210375175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-85532820495889201192015-06-09T07:06:47.678-07:002015-06-09T07:06:47.678-07:00Disagree. There are lots of disengaged Happys out ...Disagree. There are lots of disengaged Happys out there, and lots of engaged Grumpys (Thomas said he was a Grumpy). I think the real correlation for Grumpy/Happy is how the person operates internally to GG, not externally. Happy has good and strong network internal links; Grumpy does not. For whatever reason (personality included). On average. I´m sorry I brought it up since it probably doesn´t correlate with anything that really matters. I was just trying to describe a sociological phenomenon in a humorous way so as to get it out of the way. Certainly, it played into the scepticism surrounding the Athens thing, so it needed to be mentioned.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02948668339394316663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-18392351453309131942015-06-09T06:05:47.291-07:002015-06-09T06:05:47.291-07:00I wasn't in Athens but just wanted to agree wh...I wasn't in Athens but just wanted to agree whole-heartedly with Rose-Marie Dechaine's point. Linguistics in my institution had 2 people in it at the start, and 12 years later, we have 11 and have just hired 2 more. Why? Because we spent time not just being great at research, but by engaging with colleagues in other departments, with Deans and Vice Chancellors, by doing interdisciplinary work and being good citizens, (including me being Head of School) and more recently by showing our institution and the wider group of decision makers in the UK media and politics that our research was making a difference (Jenny Cheshires work on new morphosyntactic variants in Multicultural London English made it into school English curricula, Daniel Harbour's work on Kiowa helped create a systems of support for speakers of an endangered language, etc). All of that is why we're in good shape. <br /><br />From the outside, Athens did seem overly negative to me. I'm certainly not saying that all is hunky-dory, but it's not hard to collaborate, to write papers that are accessible to people in other disciplines, or articles and books for the general public. There's a huge amount of outreach already going on, but I get the feeling that many of the more senior figures in Athens weren't engaged in it, leading to the negativity. Rose-Marie suggested to me that the real correlation was between Grumpy/Happy and Engaged/Disengaged, and I think that's worth considering. Certainly, the experience I've had over the years working with sociolinguists, psychologists and others, as well as the reception my own more interdisciplinary and popular-focussed work has had, is a big reason why I fall into the Happy camp.davidadgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00821774928618824698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-47247035762299148522015-06-09T04:17:16.171-07:002015-06-09T04:17:16.171-07:00All of these strategies make sense to me, as strat...All of these strategies make sense to me, as strategies. I agree with Norbert that there was general agreement in Athens that we need to do more on this front, and there were many great suggestions and different target groups. Should we self-flagellate in addition about our failures so far? Couldn´t do any harm. But we should perhaps distinguish between outreach to the public, which one could argue should not be our job (although in practice it is because our discourse is rather opaque compared to the discourse of our detractors), and outreach to adjacent disciplines and our scientific colleagues in other field. This absolutely IS our business, and necessary to the health of our own more specific investigations, and we should self-flagellate away until we manage to do better. It is not a luxury. When we are better integrated with the sciences that abut our field, some of the more externalised outreach will become easier as well. I think Norbert voiced this view as well in Athens, or at least was in favour of prioritizing this aspect of the communication problem. <br />Unfortunately, there is also a practical aspect and appeal to youth outreach programmes: it is sometimes hard to talk to older academics who have made up their minds, who consider their membership in a particular ´other´ tribe part of their identity, and younger people don´t seem to have this rigidity built in to them yet. The ugliest and most idiotic stuff in the media related to GG has come from tribalism and egocentricity. However, if I/we are going to criticise others for tribalism, we need to turn that criticism inwards on ourselves and strive to be less tribal in our turn. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02948668339394316663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-12413956675747875302015-06-08T19:25:34.168-07:002015-06-08T19:25:34.168-07:00I'd like to take issue with Norbert's rema...I'd like to take issue with Norbert's remark that our high school outreach activities have been of questionable value for the high schoolers. That would be inaccurate, and the schools wouldn't keep coming back if they didn't find it useful (with one school we're now entering Year 8). More schools have been getting involved. But just as we don't win our colleagues' hearts and minds in a day, nor do we transform the troubled hearts and distracted minds of 100 16-year olds in a couple of hours. For many in our HS audience, it's a big step for them to visit a real college campus, or to meet with real scientists (students who are not that much older than themselves ... and surprisingly normal). For more ambitious students at another school, we fuel an ongoing linguistics club. For others it leads to internships, and some of them then show up as majors in our programs. These are baby steps, but they open the door for more. And they create opportunities to have other discussions about linguistics with more influential folks. <br /><br />It's certainly also true that one of the pleasant surprises for us has been how much these activities have benefited the students and faculty who have participated. They're a good way to practice (in a low risk setting), and they are also a great way to get folks from different fields working together. This and more in a paper from last year by Jeff Lidz & Yakov Kronrod in Language & Linguistics Compass, which can be found from the resource site that we created joint with partners from OSU, U AZ, and UMass.<br /><br /><a href="https://languagescience.umd.edu/beyond-umd/language-science-everyone" rel="nofollow">Language Science for Everyone</a>Colin Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09724709677503698323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-80203399692874755412015-06-08T19:07:08.641-07:002015-06-08T19:07:08.641-07:00Not even close.Not even close.Colin Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09724709677503698323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-23312766170767767682015-06-08T15:39:17.012-07:002015-06-08T15:39:17.012-07:00The impression we got was that not all lingusits w...The impression we got was that not all lingusits were tarred with the same brush. But I am just reporting, not evaluating. Norberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15701059232144474269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-87181947685711536622015-06-08T14:35:35.597-07:002015-06-08T14:35:35.597-07:00Both the example and most of the recommendations l...Both the example and most of the recommendations leave me wondering: Why "generative research" and not "linguistic research"? It wasn't generativists who first established that Modern Greek has 5 vowels, and it seems a safe bet that the ignorant kneejerk nationalists in question did not care in the slightest whether the authors were nativist or empiricist.Lameen Souag الأمين سواقhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00773164776222840428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-36208980809493761112015-06-08T14:09:08.413-07:002015-06-08T14:09:08.413-07:00You mean, charge it to the xerox machine toner acc...You mean, charge it to the xerox machine toner account? Hmm.David Pesetskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09666557087629655596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-72083475611164440262015-06-08T14:00:21.168-07:002015-06-08T14:00:21.168-07:00I would also put GG courses in MOOC format in that...I would also put GG courses in MOOC format in that list. That would be a great opportunity to introduce teh general public to GG.Atakan Incehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17840613103708683839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-52364461032711721012015-06-08T10:48:46.223-07:002015-06-08T10:48:46.223-07:00Thanks David. Fortunately, this is probably a solv...Thanks David. Fortunately, this is probably a solvable problem, since all universities are able to pay for things even if they're not able to donate for things. <br /><br />So, if anybody out there is nodding in agreement with David's post, and saying "That's right, we'd be right there, if only our institution would allow us to perform such acts of nobility in our self-interest", please drop me a line, and I'll be happy to coordinate with the LSA Secretariat to help you find an effective solution. The news stories initiative was discussed at the recent LSA EC meeting, and while there's broad moral support, it is hard to proceed unless there's more of the other kind of support. I'll look forward to hearing from lots of you.Colin Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09724709677503698323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-28338865292038213542015-06-08T10:07:54.901-07:002015-06-08T10:07:54.901-07:00Quick comment on your morally laudable department-...Quick comment on your morally laudable department-shaming campaign concerning financial support for the LSA outreach initiative. (I assume you meant "LSA", not "NSF" in your point 8.) My institution does not generally authorize departmental donations of this sort, except in special cases such as a natural disasters (e.g. Katrina), a level that our concerns do not rise to. I am guessing that this is true of at least some of the other "shirker" schools you mention as well, though it's great that your university has no such policy. Personal donations are another matter though. Thanks for the reminder.David Pesetskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09666557087629655596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-23615917485999124992015-06-08T07:41:40.697-07:002015-06-08T07:41:40.697-07:00You are as optimistic as I am concerning the inter...You are as optimistic as I am concerning the internal intellectual state of syntax. I have the impression that you are gloomier than I am (by quite a bit) concerning the politics (which is what the post was about) and what can be done to reverse the situation. If I was wrong about this and your disposition is not sunnier, well great. things can be done and we should do them. Let me point you to 8 above as a place to start. Norberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15701059232144474269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5275657281509261156.post-57461243054834556422015-06-08T07:29:17.462-07:002015-06-08T07:29:17.462-07:00"David Pesetsky captured the gloomy tone in a..."David Pesetsky captured the gloomy tone in a reprise of his LSA speech from a couple of years ago still redolent with the smell of sack cloth and ashes."<br /><br />Huh? I think I made a pretty specific point about one specific serious challenge — no sack cloth, no ashes, just a few claims and an argument — and ended on a point of slightly backhanded optimism, of all things. And to the extent that I was criticized here and there at the conference, it was for being too sanguine about the present state of affairs — I was thought to be on the pollyanaish Norbertian side of things, which I think I am.<br /><br />My 8-minute talk concerned the sort of challenge that I'd highlighted earlier at the 2013 LSA because that was what the organizers asked me to do — and because for all my positivity about the present, I think those challenges are genuine and serious, but principally external to linguistics (and not just generative linguistics, my main point). My statement can be read <a href="https://castl.uit.no/phocadownload/Road_Ahead/pesetsky.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a> and my slides are <a href="http://web.mit.edu/linguistics/people/faculty/pesetsky/Athens_slides_final.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Comments and thoughts welcome.David Pesetskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09666557087629655596noreply@blogger.com